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Entry for October 26, 2007

McWhinney's managing partner and co-owner of Promanade Shops at Centerra pleaded with Loveland's City Council to delay a vote on subsidizing an $80 million parking garage for Grand Station before the expected midnight vote last Tuesday (Oct. 23, 2007).

Bob Rogers, Senior VP & General Counsel for Poag & McEwen spoke to Council along with John Cirillo, VP Marketing Research.  Poag & McEwen owns and operates 16 "Lifestyle Centers" across the country.  Simply put, the demographics in Northern Colorado (550,000 population)cannot support two large "Lifestyle" type retail centers side-by-side.

They also explained that Promanade has many thousands of unleased retail that will be competing with Grand Station if it is built.

Poag & McEwen reps were surprised to learn the Council wasn't really holding a public hearing and had already decided to ram through the subsidy for McWhinney before the Nov. 6, election where Brown, Dozier and Pielin may not return to Council.  Pleas for more time to study the matter were ignored by the Council and the Grand Station subsidy was passed 7-1 with the Mayor voting No.  Pielin did not attend the meeting.

2007-10-27 01:32:41 GMT
Comments (32 total)
Please don't even entertain that lousey Rousey guy here anymore. What further evidence does this town need that our city council is as crooked as a dog's hind leg! They make me absolutely sick to my stomach to watch the railroad job!
2007-10-27 01:35:47 GMT
Good morning everyone. it is real simple all the new council should do is not approve grand station plans until the subsidy is removed, Chad and Troy McWhinney don't respect democracy in Loveland by trying to cram this down our throats before the election changes the council - well let us return the favore.
--Bill - tired of mcwhinney
2007-10-27 14:20:34 GMT
Great idea Bill. It was clearly a slap in the face to Mr. Rogers to deny even his request that the Council simply delay the item one week to better understand the issue.

Don Williams also put election date (Nov. 6) as the deadline for both the property purchases as well. This Council showed their true colors last Tuesday by doing exactly what this blog said they were going to do - pass a McWhinney subsidy of $80 million after a study session just before midnight. Funny, Mr. Rousey claims you guys have no credibility but you called that ugly act weeks before they did it - you must have a good source inside the city.

Also, I am now reading that Mr. Haynes will step down as the Chair of the Republican Party for Larimer County, gee the Coloradoan and Repeater-Herald are only a month behind you on that story. And lastly, using day-laborers for holding campaign signs? How cynical can these people be? (Pielin and Brown). I will look for that story maybe four weeks from now in the Repeater-Herald. Hiring illegal aliens to support a local campaign is illegal in two ways 1. They don't have permission to work here 2. Non-citizens cannot be active in domestic politics.

Pielin may have gotten away with hiring illegal aliens for his gardening business but for your campaign for Mayor? You have got to be kidding. The arrogance and disregard they show for democracy and the rule of law is shocking. These are bad people who do not belong in any public office.
2007-10-27 14:39:38 GMT
Hey Walt, it was a slap in the face to the candidates running for Council - Cecil Gutierrez, Kent Solt and Don Archuleta. The City Manager is rushing these things in before the election at special meetings because he doesn't want these three to have any choice in the matter - what an ass. Not to mention Troy Krenning and Ken Morey.

That old basta$% Don Williams needs to go now!
2007-10-27 14:43:16 GMT
Has anyone ever thought of alerting the FBI to what is going on here?
2007-10-27 17:42:18 GMT
Don't be too hard on Don Williams. He has Donlaps disease. You know what that is, its when your belly has done laped over your belt. He is just a stupid red neck bully. I bet though he retires to a nice mountain home on his "earnings"
2007-10-27 19:26:05 GMT
Walt: How do you look at someone and because of their ethnic appearance make the assumption that they must be illegal?

Bill wants the new council (assuming there is one) to vote against the Grand Station not based on any presentation they may hear but because he doesn't agree with the current coucil's vote on the parking!?

And again the same old assumption from Kent. The council votes different than how you believe they should vote and they therefor must be corrupt.
2007-10-27 19:42:27 GMT
And the same old BS from OUCH, the Council hands McWhinney 80 million on top of the hundreds of millions they have already received to put the first subsidized mall out of business while not a penny has been spend on true regional improvments and OUCH can't believe somehow folks seem to find something fishy about that? Go suck another cancer stick and die.
2007-10-27 23:12:40 GMT
Good bye. Thanks for all the dialog. I think I just found out how dogmatic some people can be.

2007-10-27 23:21:22 GMT
"Ouch" is a council member of the Loveland City Council, who was elected to public office to represent the masses in an appropriate manner, yet when he comes here he is consistently unprofessional, rude, threatening, obnoxious, and immature.

A recall of "Ouch" from public office is warranted.
2007-10-27 23:50:53 GMT
Yes, that's why I posted as "Ignorant", he called me an ignorant no growther when I disagreed with his dogmatic postings here(and by the way that's the correct use of the word OUCH, what I said was just offensive) and then gets all pissy when I retaliate. Since I have in the past made a living representing good developers (they do exist) I could not possibly be a no growther. By the way, Rousey stands almost directly outside the City Hall door during council breaks and smokes in violation of the 20 ft. rule and voted against that rule because he feels he should have the right to pollute our air with his second hand cancer smoke. I would call on all who post on this blog to initiate a recall of the current Coucil that might survive this election. This council and administration would not know smart growth if it bent over kissed their asses because they are too busy serving the master McWhinney.
--not Ignorant pro good growth
2007-10-28 00:39:36 GMT
I have been in planning and development for 28 years and worked for a developer of a large regional mall (working directly with the VP of Federated dept. stores) and Poag and McEwen is absolutely correct. Given the current retail development in Loveland and its population and that of the region there is no possible way the region can support now, or even in the next 5-10 years, another center of the magnitude proposed by McWhinney. Also, the contention that Grand Station will pull from a 50 mile market area is laughable. These centers never, ever draw significantly beyond 15-20 miles in an urbanized area, especially that of the front range which already has a wide range of shopping opportunities equivalent to that proposed at Grand Station. Lakewood's Belmar development, the Flat Irons mall, the redeveloped Boulder mall and several shopping centers in Aurora already offer a similar or superior shopping attraction compared to grand station and it would never draw from the Denver metro market as McWhinney projects. Most folks in Denver metro do not even know where Loveland is let alone consider driving all the way there at $3 gas prices to shop at McWhinneyville. The stupid remark of Rousey that he would rather have it (at the price of $80 million more in tax dollars) even if it is wrong just displays the supreme ignorance of this council. Sometimes I wonder, it might just be stupidity alone that have driven these decisions. This community needs to get rid of this council and administration before they destroy the future of Loveland. It may be possible to undue the recent action by denying approval of Grand Station.
2007-10-28 01:43:53 GMT
I keep telling myself that I'm not going to post any more comments but how do you not post a response to the allegations made here?

Not ignorant pro good growth: Yes, I named you "Ignorant" when you didn't put a name with your comments. If you recall, I said that was in poor judgement and I apologized for the comment. It was in response to your "good old boy" comment and saying that people like "ouch" (me) benefit from the land purchase.

I get no benefit from any action I take as a council member.

I believe using "dogmatic" was appropriate. From the dictionary: " authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles". It was used in response to Kent's comments.

As to smoking, it's a bad and nasty habit which I wish I could break (I keep trying). I also try to stand away from the front entrance to city hall in accordance to state law. It you have ever noticed, I will also move futher away when anyone is entering the building. I have always tried to be considerate of non-smokers. I truly wish I had never started.

"Go suck another cancer stick and die" was a little overboard...don't you think? We will probably disagree forever but even I would never tell anyone that.

Tad: I have neve been threatening. If, however, you consider me to be rude, unprofessional, obnoxious and immature because I agrue with those that assume that the council is corrupt then I guess I am. I guess I could just read those comments, sit back and say nothing but that would not be who I am.

To Anonymous: What I said tuesday night was that I would rather have Grand Station in Loveland even if it takes some of the sales away from the Promanade Shops instead of having a similar development built in Fort Collins or Johnstown and have them take some of sales away.

By the way, if you recall, I invited anyone who is interested to give a call or sit down over coffe and discuss any takers.

The offer still stands.
2007-10-28 13:42:07 GMT
Ouch, you asked that Poag & McEwen General Council an excellent question - if someone is going to build another lifestyle center in Northern Colorado, why not in Loveland instead of Ft. Collins or somewhere else.

His answer was interesting. He said no one can or will try to compete with the Promenade Shops since it doesn't make economic sense to build such a center to compete right now given the current demographics can't support two. He also explained that McWhinney already owned the land and is getting this huge subsidy from Council thus he can build for an artificially low cost creating UNFAIR competition.

I don't know how McWhinney has managed to manipulate the current City Council (are they corrupt or just very vulnerable and unsophisticated people?)but the bias was clear on Oct. 23, 2007. It was painful to watch.

It made me very sad the way Rousey and Brown treated the Poag & McEwen senior officers. Poag & McEwen own and operate the largest retail center in town together with McWhinney but were not given the time of day. They just asked that the Council table the subsidy for Grand Station long enough to get the facts and perform some due diligence to ascertain whether what they were telling Council was correct.

If Glenn Rousey, Jan Brown and the others were simply "Pro-Business" they would have honored the simple request that Poag & McEwen be given time to make their case about the damage Grand Station can cause the Promenade Shops since they still have open space they cannot rent.

Instead, McWhinney was given unlimited rebuttal time and further consideration not provided Poag & McEwen. I have seen McWhinney be given more time when a matter is controversial (like the trolley) half a dozen times. Poag & McEwen was afforded the same consideration.

At the end of the day, the motive of Council is unimportant. Are they bribed, flattered, given free cigarettes or simply too much money for campaigns from one company? It doesn't matter because the result is the same. A City Council with no controlling philosophy just a controlling company.

It is time for a change, I am tired of living in Pottersville!
2007-10-28 14:32:45 GMT
Correction, I meant to say Poag & McEwen were NOT afforded the same consideration.
2007-10-28 14:35:42 GMT
Glenn Rousey asked Walt how he knows someone is illegal by their appearance (Mexicans holding signs for Pielin and Brown around town).

Well, I told them to get off my property (I was checking on my four-plex when I saw them planting signs on my property). They didn't speak English at all only Spanish.

Mr. Rousey loves to argue so let me concede his point. These Mexican "volunteers" for Pielin and Brown could have been legitimately adopted by Angelina Jolie or Madonna and brought to this country in a private jet to start their news lives and haven't yet learned to speak the language of their new parents. They did however, feel moved to support McWhinney minions
for Loveland City Council given Jan Brown and Gene Pielin speak such excellent and fluent Spanish and well known in Hollywood. Yes, Mr. Rousey, you are right, they could be legally and not speak English and volunteer for local candidates - it is possible.

I am going to instead go with the more likely scenario that these "undocumented workers" are supporting the American politicians they do know instead - George Washington and Abe Lincoln on green paper.

Gene Pielin doesn't deserve to be our Mayor if he thinks hiring illegals to wave and plant campaign signs is an allowable practice.
2007-10-28 14:56:06 GMT
The issue of the lack of equality with respect to McWhinney and consideration of a major business representative to simply delay this action illustrates the total lack of transparency at City Hall and the extreme deference given to McWhinney over any other business, large or small, and the public. The business community has been aware of this for years and the public thank god is finally waking up. These are the types of actions, among others, deep subsidies far beyond amounts necessary to bring a project into fruition and destructive to the tax base, complete waivers of standards for roads (McWhinney has a blanket LOS of D for roads while everyone else must live with the standard of C), reimbursements for "oversizing" of utilities (how do you oversize utilities inside your own project and that serve only your project?), amendments to the MFA to permit the expenditure of regional monies on non-regional roads (Kendal Parkway) etc. that create strong suspicions by the public concerning the true relationship between McWhinney and the administration and Council. Delaying the action even for several months would have had no effect on the relative competitive advantage of Loveland over another competing community. The true market is so far off supporting another mall in this region it will take many years for this deal or that in a competing community to materialize. McWhinney has brought this to a sense of urgency for one reason, they saw a gullible council easily influenced and political change coming and wanted to soak the community to the max while they had a chance and it worked. Rousey, you aren't crooked, you're just dumb. A sophisticated council would have seen this and taken the time to negotiate the best deal for the community. What this Council has not learned, with the exception of the Mayor, is that you absolutely must keep your development partners at an arms length. They have warped their arms around McWhinney and they will pay the political price. Hiring people to waive signs regardless of whether they are illegal aliens or just poor hired hands speaks volumes - no one supports them.
2007-10-28 15:58:42 GMT
Looks like McWhinney is epecting their allies to lose and so has asked them to ram thru the $80 taxpayer subsidy (Loveland's annual tax revenue is around $50 million if you need to know). The Council candidates are expendable as long as McWhinney gets their last hurrah.

The fact that the incumbents njeed to hire illegal aliens to wave signs shows not only desperation but disregard, no disrespect for the law.

Never thought in my 18 years I'd see Loveland sink so low.
2007-10-29 06:33:16 GMT
Mr. Rousey's recent remarks and tirades here have made one thing certain - the City Council of Loveland has nothing but contempt and disdain for the voters and taxpayers of Loveland. Mr. Rousey's recent remarks and tirades here have made one thing certain - the City Council of Loveland looks upon the voters and taxpayers of Loveland as inferior and subordiante to them because they think themselves god.
2007-10-29 13:26:03 GMT
The over-simplification, generalizations and utter disrespect is just too much. While we can all dis-agree, why not do it in a more mature, thoughtful and meaningful way? To me, I am all about debating differing points of view but to be so hateful seriously limits ones credibility.
I think it is very interesting that people spew their venom, complain about how bad everything/everyone is and don't run for any office and almost never leave their name on this blog. I will not leave my name on this blog because if I did, the over the top, name callers and irrational people lead me to believe that because I have a different opinion, I may be a target as well.
How/why should a city council member listen to constituants that don't have anything constructive to say?
--No Balls
2007-10-29 18:40:26 GMT
Sandy, I think Mr. Rousey is a sincere man who really in his heart believes he is doing something to better the community. The Council didn't find McWhinney, McWhinney found them and has them dancing like trained poodles. They just are not a sophisticated group of people.

Did anyone see the absurd presentation by Rich Shannon to Council now trying to sell Grand Station as a source of primary jobs? These people will say anything for money and have no integrity.

The arrogance and disdain really starts with Pielin and flows through Brown and the rest of them. My home may be nothing in value compared with what McWhinney owns in town but it is all I have in this world. Taking my tax dollars to further subsidize new homes in the community while our homes are loosing value is a smack in the face to every homeowner in Loveland.

Together we can vote ALL these rescals out of office but we just need to tell everyone we know not to vote for Pielin or Krenning or Brown, Dozier or Heckel.

Let these dancing poodles become McWhinney's private dancers instead giving him our money and reducing the value of our homes even further.

I read a letter against 2C by Greg Snyder that warned we could become too much like Ft. Collins. Well, Mr. Snyder, if you like Greeley and Johnstown so much, stop trying to wreck Loveland and just move out to Greeley. Ft. Collins homes have gone up in value while Loveland continues to go down. There is a reason.

STOP SUBSIDIZING SPRAWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2007-10-29 18:45:09 GMT
I gave you this form to gov't to protect you, to empower you, to honor & ratify your desires for freedom & a better life as you define it. If you believe the existing Council is inadequate, vote. If you like the status quo, don't bother. All that's necessary for evil to prevail is for good men & women to do nothing.
2007-11-03 15:00:49 GMT
As I read this blog, it's clear that there are a lot of strong opinions on McWhinney and Centerra out there. Some are supported by fact, others are not. I'd be happy to participate in a BYO brown bag lunch to hear and respond to your comments/questions/criticisms downtown somewhere if you're interested. We all may learn something from each other. Who's up for some face to face discussion?
Rocky Scott
McWhinney Centerra
--Rocky Scott
2007-11-08 03:45:16 GMT
Rocky Scott,

Thanks, but no thanks. I've already been on the receiving end of your 'discussions': I try to talk and you interrupt, condescend, and are just down right rude.

I have never shopped in the glorified strip mall that the McWhinneys built on good farming land. I never will.

2007-11-08 13:24:28 GMT

Thank you for your offer. However, your premise that disagreement with McWhinney can only be the result of some sort of ignorance or “misunderstanding” on my part is quite frankly insulting. I read the MFA and all the amendments and consider my opinion to be an informed one at the very least.

Yes, I hear some kind of public discussion or “summit” on the proper uses of public monies is being organized. I would very much appreciate your participation in that discussion since I understand the new Councilmen might be supporting the summit along with the organizers of Measure 2C.

Monologues are never interesting so your participation in the discussion with people who didn’t move to Northern Colorado to work for McWhinney will be fascinating and hopefully informative.

I look forward to meeting you there! I also want to encourage the folks behind this website to consider being a sponsor of the summit along with the Lovelanders for Fair Elections.

2007-11-08 18:36:46 GMT
When is it? Where it it?
2007-11-08 20:54:50 GMT
I don't recall having a discussion with you. Please remind me of the context. If I was rude and condescending it was out of character and I apologize. I've been engaged in civic life for over 25 years and no one else has made that claim but maybe I had a bad day. The offer is still open.

Thanks for being willing to get together. What times/dates would work best for you? By the way, I moved to northern Colorado in 1956, stayed here from 4th grade through college so I too have roots, probably deeper than most. If others would like to join, the more diverse opinions the better. I'm sure we have a lot to learn from each other.

--Rocky Scott
2007-11-08 20:57:27 GMT
Walt, once again you are taking someone's comments to an entirely different level. Please tell me where Rocky Scott is making the premise that you must be ignorant or misunderstood. Why would someone be insulted by by his request to meet face to face? Your credibility must be questioned when you are unwilling to have dialogue. Instead, you make these broad generalizations and hit and run comments. As a so called informed individual, it begs the question as to where you are getting your information. Again, would it not be more informative to talk directly with the people (entity) that you disagree with?
I get the impression that Rocky is not trying to change your mind but to understand your position.
--Cred Checker
2007-11-09 17:21:27 GMT
Cred Chacker - Did you forget your reading glasses? I said there is a symposium being planned and I want to see Rocky participate as will I, how is this hit and run?

He also said, "As I read this blog, it's clear that there are a lot of strong opinions on McWhinney and Centerra out there. Some are supported by fact, others are not."

2007-11-09 18:14:12 GMT
Would you be willing to meet face to face, with others who wish to participate, outside of the summit? I haven't seen anything announced yet. I have participated in lots of community "summits" and have helped convene quite a few myself that involved people from many different parts of the community (diversity in socio economic, racial, ethnic, employment, age...) and (the source of the most constructive conversation) with many different views. I worked in the community leadership group on a large such summit with the National League of Cities, which does a lot of community building work. While I value community summits for their own purposes, if they are truly objective like the NLC effort, and will try to attend the one that you say may be coming up,they don't replace direct conversation which allows for creation of a foundation of greater mutual respect if not always agreement.
--Rocky Scott
2007-11-10 03:42:48 GMT
I don't know why you all need a summit or what the problem is that Rocky Scott needs to resolve. is a media source they don't influence. This is really weird because that is what this country is all about - different opinions.
2007-11-10 06:24:40 GMT
It's clear that McWhinney Enterprises is bothered by all of the pushback from Lovelanders. Centerra's Rocky Scott is already busily setting up meetings with "future leaders" (his term), presumably to win new friends in influential places and to counter all the pushback that began in earnest when he and fellow McWhinney representative Shannon tried to double-dip with yet-new local taxes to pay for the road improvements McW's wanted and were already (formerly) obligated to cover.
The McWhinney/Centerra group is welcome to do their best to continually game the system to increase their personal fortunes. I expect Rocky to do what his employer wants him to do in that regard. That's the American way. But as a taxpayer, consumer, and voter, I will not support them and I will fight to keep my taxes from doing the same. And I will hold my decision-makers accountable. I see no value in meeting with Mr.Scott, because his interests (taxpayer subsidies for their development) are in direct conflict with mine and there is little probability that anything I would say would influence McWhinney and company's actions.
2007-11-13 20:25:49 GMT
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